tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post5727874680803011831..comments2024-03-28T05:13:12.886-04:00Comments on QueryTracker Blog: Handling Critiques Without Getting DefensivePatrickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17771807777617244491noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-48774715887066993942010-05-07T09:28:30.901-04:002010-05-07T09:28:30.901-04:00In response to Eric's post:
There is a differ...In response to Eric's post:<br /><br />There is a difference between a critique and a beta read.<br />The nitpicky, grammar, sentence structure and style concentration has a place in a critique - but not in a beta read, which should concentrate on story elements. (Goal Motivation Conflict (GMC), to be exact.)<br />Though in essence I agree with you. :)<br /><br />I did a beta read for one of my critique partners yesterday.<br />It was harsh. I essentially told her to scrap the first 50 pages and start over. It was boring. I forced myself through the first 25 pages and made a note there that I want to give up.<br />The story picked up later, and turned out very well, but those first 50 pages were just... rubbish.<br />I said so.<br />I got a defensive email - but I understand that. We went over it, and later last night, I got a revision of the first scene -- and it rocked.<br />Then I got an email saying "I just reread the beginning again and... you were right. Damn, it's boring! I'm so glad you kicked my butt."<br />That's what it's all about. It's hard to take (and I got those crits myself before) hard to swallow, sometimes hard to act on - but so worth it.<br />BUT... you have to be able to trust your critique partner's judgment. <br />I actually hate critiques which consist of one line, praising how well the story is written, how nuch they liked it... because it doesn't help me.<br />I especially hate it when I *know* something is wrong, but can't put my finger on it.<br />Give it to me straight, right between the peepers. I like that. :)<br />So there you have it, there are two sides to receiving a critique - those who like people getting tough, and those who don't.<br />(Of course, there is harsh, sometimes brutal, critiquing -- and there's pure malice. One does not equal the other.)Silkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00386721560600347930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-62661938203412642152010-05-06T12:11:16.770-04:002010-05-06T12:11:16.770-04:00I probably rank real dang high on the "don...I probably rank real dang high on the "don't take advice" list, and I've shaken my head at a few crits that were too full of likes and dislikes.<br /><br />Why? Because I don't usually get the feedback I want.<br /><br />When I ask for a crit, I ask, IN THIS ORDER:<br /><br />0) Is this an interesting topic, did you want to finish?<br />1) Is the writing clear?<br />2) Do you understand the story?<br />3) Do the scenes flow? How is the structure?<br />4) Is the writing clear?<br />5) Did you like the voice? The POV?<br />6) Is the writing clear?<br /><br />Many crits -- especially from other writers -- focus on STYLE and TONE and NITPICKING GRAMMAR, rather than story-interest and structure and clarity. Note that style on my list is pretty far down.<br /><br />Note that GRAMMAR isn't even on there.<br /><br />FIRST the work must be CLEAR.<br /><br />CLEAR!<br /><br />Then you can focus on style and address stuff like this, actual feedback I've received:<br /><br /> o Too dark<br /> o Too flippant<br /> o Boring<br /> o I can't read stories about dead puppies (But they LIVE, I said to him)<br /> o Has no place in this sort of book<br /> o Not relevant<br /> o Sounds too Baron Munchhausen<br /> o Dude, this stinks. I couldn't read it. (my brother)<br /><br />"But was it <i>clear</i>? Did it flow?" I asked my brother.<br /><br />"Yeah."<br /><br />"Good."<br /><br />Because if your writing is CLEAR, then you can begin to focus on grabbing the reader and shaking them for a few hours.<br /><br /> - EricEric W. Tranthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13842968931062056407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-29267195631071692722010-05-06T10:34:25.616-04:002010-05-06T10:34:25.616-04:00I am so glad that you posted this! I'm about t...I am <i>so</i> glad that you posted this! I'm about to start editing my MS, and I'm sure this post will come in handy!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-85981402460090480412010-05-05T20:10:16.516-04:002010-05-05T20:10:16.516-04:00Super post!
I'm much thicker skinned now, but ...Super post!<br />I'm much thicker skinned now, but still, sometimes I just get emotional. Rejections do that too.Amanda Borenstadthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03061109442550378113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-24040959575722325492010-05-05T19:16:02.639-04:002010-05-05T19:16:02.639-04:00I had my critique partner nip my defensive attitud...I had my critique partner nip my defensive attitude in the butt right off the bat. How? He asked me point blank, what do you expect from me praise or an honest opinion. Then he went on to say if you think I'm harsh, wait till an agent or editor gets a hold of your manuscript. <br /><br />Trust me, I got it. He did make sure I knew he felt I was talented, however I'm not perfect. <br />Now I look at it this way, it's fresh eyes looking at something and seeing what I may not. (Hugs)IndigoSage Ravenwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17143502548162174269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-36560940841158151032010-05-05T19:02:49.974-04:002010-05-05T19:02:49.974-04:00Good suggestion -- I will make a note to write an ...Good suggestion -- I will make a note to write an article on how to be a good critiquer!<br /><br />I love all your thoughts and suggestions -- so many good ideas here!Carolyn Kaufman | @CMKaufmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07715666518147779502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-24019677132037923182010-05-05T18:49:51.939-04:002010-05-05T18:49:51.939-04:00Thank you! This is perfect for me as I am about to...Thank you! This is perfect for me as I am about to join a new group which I'm sure will be harder on me than my old bunch who have become much too gentle.<br />When I feel myself getting riled at some criticism I just tell myself that the person is not touching my computer, that it's still up to me to change things or not. That calms me down and the next day I can think calmly about what to do.Jilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06206343146099915097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-77536852805505940002010-05-05T18:23:44.340-04:002010-05-05T18:23:44.340-04:00Great post. Sometimes I do get depressed when I ge...Great post. Sometimes I do get depressed when I get criticism from a critique partner. But with my good partners, who read the same genre as me, I usually come to that they are right.<br /><br />I'm trying to grow my thick skin because you're right, we all need it once we start submitting. I think I'm making progress in that regard.Natalie Aguirrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03756087804171246660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-1463126336948403772010-05-05T17:18:46.807-04:002010-05-05T17:18:46.807-04:00A great article. It's something every writer n...A great article. It's something every writer needs to learn. <br /><br />However... not all advice is good advice. We have to sift what we get. Things some people hate, others love. If more than one person makes a similar comment, maybe you've got a problem. If one person 'misunderstands' - maybe they always would.Gretahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17841238859027209755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-56515855036993546522010-05-05T17:01:23.427-04:002010-05-05T17:01:23.427-04:00A fantastic post. I shudder to think about all the...A fantastic post. I shudder to think about all the deconstructive criticism I gave when I was new to the critique process. I hope those writers were able to make their writing better in spite of me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11271149538259398956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-42626372907496861272010-05-05T15:47:20.442-04:002010-05-05T15:47:20.442-04:00I agree, these are great reminders about how we ca...I agree, these are great reminders about how we can learn from critiques and how to approach criticism. I would also like to see a post on how TO critique; one example, I submitted a novel excerpt and synopsis in a fiction writing class, clearly labeled that it was a novel excerpt. One of my classmates wrote in response: "You should read lots of short stories so that you'd learn what makes a short story successful." Not helpful at all.Kim Batchelorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13706206136308395706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-65894497229168712312010-05-05T15:40:26.338-04:002010-05-05T15:40:26.338-04:00Excellent post Carolyn, thank you for this.Excellent post Carolyn, thank you for this.Anne Gallagherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816355522284492131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-82972979179479405202010-05-05T15:29:51.554-04:002010-05-05T15:29:51.554-04:00Super post! I think the first critique I got almo...Super post! I think the first critique I got almost killed me, but I learned...Now, I hope to get real criticism. <br /><br />I try to document my emotions when I'm reading someone else's manuscript. I know I want my writing to evoke emotion in the reader. I figure it's nice to tell the writer when I laughed and cried in his/her ms. :)Sharon K. Mayhewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07799235347319851345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-88416240147063999752010-05-05T14:26:12.328-04:002010-05-05T14:26:12.328-04:00Excellent, excellent post. I truly believe it does...Excellent, excellent post. I truly believe it does get easier to receive a critique, the longer you're with a strong, respectful group, but, boy, it can be painful for a while! Nice thoughts on how to deal with it. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-64120836780602199952010-05-05T13:49:39.438-04:002010-05-05T13:49:39.438-04:00Brilliant post. Criticism and writing go hand-in-h...Brilliant post. Criticism and writing go hand-in-hand.Bethany Wigginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07345327120999157124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-66874528337585450422010-05-05T13:29:28.598-04:002010-05-05T13:29:28.598-04:00I think it's most important to remember that t...I think it's most important to remember that the purpose of a critique group is to make each member a stronger writer. Yes, you need a thick skin, but it's also true that some people simply never learn how to give or take feedback without making it personal.kathrynjankowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16708011523767228663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-31945552947844996282010-05-05T12:58:36.962-04:002010-05-05T12:58:36.962-04:00Great post! I feel worse when critters don't p...Great post! I feel worse when critters <i>don't</i> point out mistakes in my writing and I query it like that. Not cool. <br /><br />My writing has improved because of honest feedback, and because I'm willing to push myself harder as a result of it. The trick is finding the right individuals to do that. Not all critters are created equal.Stinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11415189347501942340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-60317396203574153042010-05-05T12:08:54.935-04:002010-05-05T12:08:54.935-04:00Thanks for all the great comments!
Kristi -- I th...Thanks for all the great comments!<br /><br />Kristi -- I think it's good when you can pick out something (PhD programs included!) where you had to deal with tough criticism but got through it. And I think we all have experiences we can look back on and say "yeah, I dealt with this even though it was hard." We can draw strength from that memory and apply what we learned to our writing. I agree, critiques of our writing can be much harder than any other critique (ever!), but we can learn to deal with that, too. Eye on the prize, kids! :-)<br /><br />Stephanie -- great point! - being a good critiquer can help you appreciate the intent and feelings behind a good critique!<br /><br />Phylicia -- Wow, that was a brave thing to do, to ask your husband. Good for you, you've taken the first step toward being able to take critiques better. You were able to hear his "yes" on this, and that takes a lot of courage!<br /><br />Wendy -- Another great point -- set the crit aside and let the feelings simmer down a bit so you can take a more honest look in a day or so.<br /><br />And Erinn -- Yes, I think that punching your crit partner in the throat might be a leeeeetle aggressive when it comes to responses. Thanks for the chuckle! ;-)Carolyn Kaufman | @CMKaufmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07715666518147779502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-91897930504041367282010-05-05T11:32:25.916-04:002010-05-05T11:32:25.916-04:00I really enjoy watching Evan Lysacek receive comme...I really enjoy watching Evan Lysacek receive comments from the judges on Dancing With the Stars because he's ready to hear what will help him refine and grow. And I aspire to that in my own work.<br /><br />Really enjoyed how you laid out typical responses with practical steps to avoid snags in the future.Julia Phillips Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15392455413201190775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-42219715900665515862010-05-05T11:01:06.797-04:002010-05-05T11:01:06.797-04:00Oh... so punching my crit partner in the throat ev...Oh... so punching my crit partner in the throat every time she fixes a grammar mistake is the WRONG approach. Got it! <br /><br />Seriously this is a great post. Very informative. <br />I find it's best if you let your work sit for a long time before you hand it over to someone to read, this way you're less emotionally committed to the work and characters.Erinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13936046127305211439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-30930060425079882772010-05-05T10:58:39.873-04:002010-05-05T10:58:39.873-04:00What a wonderful, essential post! I like how you&#...What a wonderful, essential post! I like how you've broken it down. Well done!Suzette Saxtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06401538008029407734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-61113707044578864082010-05-05T10:31:30.105-04:002010-05-05T10:31:30.105-04:00Woops, I followed Elena's facebook to this pos...Woops, I followed Elena's facebook to this post, but I see it's Carolyn that wrote it. So good job Carolyn. THanks for sharing. :)Wendy Sworehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02348745344259509113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-78766228521155026262010-05-05T10:29:45.362-04:002010-05-05T10:29:45.362-04:00I find that when I get a harsh critique that stirs...I find that when I get a harsh critique that stirs defensive feelings in me, I have to put it aside and let it sit for a day. Then when I pick it up again, I can look at it with more honest eyes, and see the value of what advice was given.<br /><br />Sometimes you can't help but take things personally, but you can help how you react at that point. Spitting a negative reply is never a good idea--especially when the critiques usually have good merit to what they say. <br /><br />Excellent Post Elena.Wendy Sworehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02348745344259509113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-20284303854423575122010-05-05T10:09:32.584-04:002010-05-05T10:09:32.584-04:00I forwarded this email to my husband (my #1 fan) a...I forwarded this email to my husband (my #1 fan) and asked him "Is this me?" <br /><br />Of course, he delicately said yes, but it's hard to escape when you see yourself in bullet point form. Thanks for the article, it is very insightful.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02093563697606366499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7454222325290313520.post-83008475418341177532010-05-05T10:07:18.949-04:002010-05-05T10:07:18.949-04:00Great advice Carolyn, thanks for sharing. It is ha...Great advice Carolyn, thanks for sharing. It is hard sometimes to keep in mind that real feedback has only one purpose, to make your writing better. An astute, constructive critique is truly a gift.Matthew MacNishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03264738483763244969noreply@blogger.com